If you ask most people concerned with international trade what is a transport document, they will have a good idea what it is. If you take that transport document and photocopy it, according to the Banking Comm. it is transfigured to a non-transport document. This does not make any sense to most people and undoubtedly leads to confusion.
Does anyone agree or disagree with me ?
Laurence
What is a transport document ?
-
larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
-
KimChristensen
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:21 pm
What is a transport document ?
Dear Laurence,
I think that I would agree with you. Perhaps I would even go one step further, and say that it is not logic/reasonable, that ONLY the documents described in UCP 500 article 23 – 28 are “transport documents”.
However, from practical (UCP-)point of view, I can (if nothing else) see the idea. I.e. looking at ICC opinion TA.289 (unpublished). When a copy of the transport document is presented, it is usually because there is a “time slip” between shipment and presentation (i.e. under a standby credit). This means that you have the risk, that you will get in trouble with UCP 500 article 43,a – and in any case the “shipment date” and “period for presentation” is not relevant (as it is under a commercial credit). With this opinion no such risk exists.
In principle you should of course “close” this risk via a clause in the credit allowing for presentation of documents later than 21 days after the date of shipment, as long as they are presented within the validity of the credit. In real life however, I think you would often “forget” that
In addition to that, I also accept the ICC argument that there may be information missing on the copy of the bill of lading (carrier etc.) (ICC opinion R455)
So I guess the answer is: yes and no
Best regards
Kim
I think that I would agree with you. Perhaps I would even go one step further, and say that it is not logic/reasonable, that ONLY the documents described in UCP 500 article 23 – 28 are “transport documents”.
However, from practical (UCP-)point of view, I can (if nothing else) see the idea. I.e. looking at ICC opinion TA.289 (unpublished). When a copy of the transport document is presented, it is usually because there is a “time slip” between shipment and presentation (i.e. under a standby credit). This means that you have the risk, that you will get in trouble with UCP 500 article 43,a – and in any case the “shipment date” and “period for presentation” is not relevant (as it is under a commercial credit). With this opinion no such risk exists.
In principle you should of course “close” this risk via a clause in the credit allowing for presentation of documents later than 21 days after the date of shipment, as long as they are presented within the validity of the credit. In real life however, I think you would often “forget” that
In addition to that, I also accept the ICC argument that there may be information missing on the copy of the bill of lading (carrier etc.) (ICC opinion R455)
So I guess the answer is: yes and no
Best regards
Kim
What is a transport document ?
Laurence,
If I understand you correctly, I’m afraid I disagree with you. In other words, I do not believe a stipulation for a (photo)copy transport document should fall within the ‘transport document’ articles of the UCP. Instead I believe the credit should set out exactly what the document should state/show. Nonetheless, I still consider that Position Paper No. 3 applies to such a document and thus where the credit contains conditions than can be ‘clearly linked’ to that (photo)copy ‘transport’ document they must be complied with, just as for any other such condition/document. Thus I personally regard the ICC ‘Banking’ Commission’s answers to ‘L/C requirement (A)’, ‘L/C requirement (B)’ and ‘L/C requirement (D)’ of the ‘unpublished’ opinion ‘Whether late presentation is applicable and has a meaning in the context of copies and non-negotiable copies of bills of lading’ (don’t know the ref.) to be 100% WRONG.
Jeremy
[edited 1/11/2005 5:18:55 PM]
If I understand you correctly, I’m afraid I disagree with you. In other words, I do not believe a stipulation for a (photo)copy transport document should fall within the ‘transport document’ articles of the UCP. Instead I believe the credit should set out exactly what the document should state/show. Nonetheless, I still consider that Position Paper No. 3 applies to such a document and thus where the credit contains conditions than can be ‘clearly linked’ to that (photo)copy ‘transport’ document they must be complied with, just as for any other such condition/document. Thus I personally regard the ICC ‘Banking’ Commission’s answers to ‘L/C requirement (A)’, ‘L/C requirement (B)’ and ‘L/C requirement (D)’ of the ‘unpublished’ opinion ‘Whether late presentation is applicable and has a meaning in the context of copies and non-negotiable copies of bills of lading’ (don’t know the ref.) to be 100% WRONG.
Jeremy
[edited 1/11/2005 5:18:55 PM]
-
larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
What is a transport document ?
Jeremy,
perhaps my initial posting was a little brief. Let me put it another way to better explain my difficulty with this interpretation :
A copy of an original insurance document is an insurance document.
The same is true for C/O, invoice, inspection cert, health cert. ad infinitum. Why then does a copy transport document magically transform into something other than a transport document ? This inane interpretation is exclusive to the banking fraternity. Everybody else calls a spade a spade, even if it is a copy of a spade, although under UCP the title of a shovel would be equally acceptable. However based on opinions already cited, the copy of a spade is now an indeterminate implement without any possible gardening connotations.
Please forgive the gardening allegory from the greenest garden of Europe.
Laurence
perhaps my initial posting was a little brief. Let me put it another way to better explain my difficulty with this interpretation :
A copy of an original insurance document is an insurance document.
The same is true for C/O, invoice, inspection cert, health cert. ad infinitum. Why then does a copy transport document magically transform into something other than a transport document ? This inane interpretation is exclusive to the banking fraternity. Everybody else calls a spade a spade, even if it is a copy of a spade, although under UCP the title of a shovel would be equally acceptable. However based on opinions already cited, the copy of a spade is now an indeterminate implement without any possible gardening connotations.
Please forgive the gardening allegory from the greenest garden of Europe.
Laurence
-
KimChristensen
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:21 pm
What is a transport document ?
Dear Laurence and Jeremy,
I truly thank you for adding value to my DC-Pro subscription
Jeremy, can you explain why it is that you “do not believe a stipulation for a (photo)copy transport document should fall within the ‘transport document’ articles of the UCP”.
I agree with your arguments regarding position paper 3. Would the same – in your mind – apply, if the credit requirement were a FCR or FCT (regarding i.e. latest date of shipment and shipment from and to) ?
Laurence, thanks for the gardening allegory; it almost felt like summer
Best regards
Kim
I truly thank you for adding value to my DC-Pro subscription
Jeremy, can you explain why it is that you “do not believe a stipulation for a (photo)copy transport document should fall within the ‘transport document’ articles of the UCP”.
I agree with your arguments regarding position paper 3. Would the same – in your mind – apply, if the credit requirement were a FCR or FCT (regarding i.e. latest date of shipment and shipment from and to) ?
Laurence, thanks for the gardening allegory; it almost felt like summer
Best regards
Kim
What is a transport document ?
Kim,
(1) Because a (photo)copy of a transport document cannot be a ‘transport document’ as described in the relevant articles of the UCP as -by its nature- the (photo) copy (as opposed to the original document from which it was copied) cannot (or at least one is permitting that it does not) appear to be signed in accordance with, in the case of a b/l, sub-Article 23a(i).
(2) Latest shipment date definitely NDC. Not sure regarding shipment from and to. If I had to make a decision @ 1650 on a Friday without doing any research it would probably be they’re also NDCs.
Jeremy
(1) Because a (photo)copy of a transport document cannot be a ‘transport document’ as described in the relevant articles of the UCP as -by its nature- the (photo) copy (as opposed to the original document from which it was copied) cannot (or at least one is permitting that it does not) appear to be signed in accordance with, in the case of a b/l, sub-Article 23a(i).
(2) Latest shipment date definitely NDC. Not sure regarding shipment from and to. If I had to make a decision @ 1650 on a Friday without doing any research it would probably be they’re also NDCs.
Jeremy
-
larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
What is a transport document ?
Jeremy,
are you saying that we should treat a signed copy B/L differently to an unsigned copy, i.e. that a signed copy complies with Art. 23 a i ? Of course I accept that it does not comply with Art. 23 a iv.
My interpretation of Art. 23 a i involves a requirement for a signed B/L, but I cannot find any article which says that a signed copy B/L is not a B/L. Do you agree ?
Laurence
are you saying that we should treat a signed copy B/L differently to an unsigned copy, i.e. that a signed copy complies with Art. 23 a i ? Of course I accept that it does not comply with Art. 23 a iv.
My interpretation of Art. 23 a i involves a requirement for a signed B/L, but I cannot find any article which says that a signed copy B/L is not a B/L. Do you agree ?
Laurence
What is a transport document ?
Laurence,
Sorry, but I’m struggling to understand your point. Whatever, I certainly agree that the subject of ‘copy’ transport documents is not expressly dealt with by the UCP. However, para 21 of Pub. 645 does. I would observe that -in my experience- so called ‘non-negotiable’ copies of B/Ls supplied by carriers are usually unsigned and that para 21 states ‘Where copies (non-negotiable) are presented [where a credit allows for the presentation of a copy(ies) rather than an original(s)], they need not evidence signature, dates, etc.’
What I am saying is that if one wants a (photo)copy of a -say- bill of lading, that shows -for example- that the original is signed in accordance with sub-Article 23(a)(i), then one must expressly say so in the Credit in order to be certain of being able to refuse it if it does not.
Jeremy
Sorry, but I’m struggling to understand your point. Whatever, I certainly agree that the subject of ‘copy’ transport documents is not expressly dealt with by the UCP. However, para 21 of Pub. 645 does. I would observe that -in my experience- so called ‘non-negotiable’ copies of B/Ls supplied by carriers are usually unsigned and that para 21 states ‘Where copies (non-negotiable) are presented [where a credit allows for the presentation of a copy(ies) rather than an original(s)], they need not evidence signature, dates, etc.’
What I am saying is that if one wants a (photo)copy of a -say- bill of lading, that shows -for example- that the original is signed in accordance with sub-Article 23(a)(i), then one must expressly say so in the Credit in order to be certain of being able to refuse it if it does not.
Jeremy
-
larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
What is a transport document ?
Jeremy,
I agree that par 21 of ISBP states that copy transport documents are not transport documents for the purposes of the UCP, neither does it state what these copies are. The same para accepts that copies are presented, but it does not give any indication what copies are for the purposes of the UCP, if they are not transport documents.
Do you agree that importers, exporters, carriers, Inspection agencies, Customs officials, government depts. and strangely enough ICC affiliated Chambers of Commerce (for certification purposes) regard copies of transport documents as transport documents ?
Laurence
I agree that par 21 of ISBP states that copy transport documents are not transport documents for the purposes of the UCP, neither does it state what these copies are. The same para accepts that copies are presented, but it does not give any indication what copies are for the purposes of the UCP, if they are not transport documents.
Do you agree that importers, exporters, carriers, Inspection agencies, Customs officials, government depts. and strangely enough ICC affiliated Chambers of Commerce (for certification purposes) regard copies of transport documents as transport documents ?
Laurence