negotiable documents/number issued
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MichaelFlanagan
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:14 pm
negotiable documents/number issued
does anybody know if a bill of lading or insurance policy or certificate must state the number of originals issued. according to ucp a full set of both must be presented if the document states more than one presented. If it doesn't state how many issued, how do you know how many is a full set.
negotiable documents/number issued
My initial personal views, without liability/responsibility, are:
The provisions regarding presentation of all original documents seem to vary between sub-Articles 23aiv & 34b.
23aiv seems to require a bank to determine if all original bladings appear to have been presented. Therefore, I believe a blading must indicate, as a condition of compliance, how many have been issued. Therefore, a blading that did not would be not be compliant.
However, 34b does not impose such an obligation with respect to insurance documents. Here, a bank is only concerned “If the insurance document indicates that it has been issued in more than one original”. If the insurance document does not contain such an indication, the bank is entitled to take it that only one original has been issued.
[edited 4/12/02 11:58:13 AM]
The provisions regarding presentation of all original documents seem to vary between sub-Articles 23aiv & 34b.
23aiv seems to require a bank to determine if all original bladings appear to have been presented. Therefore, I believe a blading must indicate, as a condition of compliance, how many have been issued. Therefore, a blading that did not would be not be compliant.
However, 34b does not impose such an obligation with respect to insurance documents. Here, a bank is only concerned “If the insurance document indicates that it has been issued in more than one original”. If the insurance document does not contain such an indication, the bank is entitled to take it that only one original has been issued.
[edited 4/12/02 11:58:13 AM]
negotiable documents/number issued
We agree with Jeremy's comments. He is a very good "literal man" and can see with an eagle's eye those small prints. Maybe this is also because he is interested in common law in which literal meaning carries relatively more weight than in the civil law.
In fact in the current draft version of the ISBP, ICC Document 470/951rev2, it requires a bill of lading to state on its face the number of originals issued but there is no such requirement in the insurance documents.
www.tolee.com
[edited 4/12/02 3:50:23 PM]
In fact in the current draft version of the ISBP, ICC Document 470/951rev2, it requires a bill of lading to state on its face the number of originals issued but there is no such requirement in the insurance documents.
www.tolee.com
[edited 4/12/02 3:50:23 PM]
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larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
negotiable documents/number issued
I know of a number of banks who would reject if the number of original insurance certificates could not be ascertained. For reasons already mentioned by others, I disagree with such rejections, but it is a "grey area" which possibly could be clarified by ISBP.
Laurence
Laurence
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hatemshehab
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:19 pm
negotiable documents/number issued
Many banks stipulate that "3/3 clean shipped on board marine B/L issued to the order of ... " the issuing bank must be presented. If the beneficiary presents one original 1/1 B/L OR 2/2 because the carrier so issued such set would this raise a valid discrepancy with the credit? Issuing bank is keen to cross the Ts and dot the Is in his credit operations.
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larryBacon
- Posts: 689
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negotiable documents/number issued
Hatem's question can be answered generally as well as specifically. Any DC calling for three originals of the same document, requires all three originals. Bills of Lading are somewhat exceptional in that if called for in a DC, all originals must be presented if no indication is present detailing no. of originals & copies.
Laurence
Laurence
negotiable documents/number issued
ISSUING 3 ORIGINAL BS/L IS NOT A NECESSITY NOW
The requirement of 3 originals in BL is no more a necessity now. In the good old days, mailing was the only way to pass documents over continents and mailing was not as dependable as today’s courier services. That is why we need 3 original BsL and 2 drafts, to be dispatched by two or more separate mails. If one mail was lost, we had a spare original(s).
Now with the Internet and the courier services in one mail, who needs 3 originals? For environmental protection and cost saving reasons, we do encourage carriers to issue one original in transport and insurance documents, as well as drafts. If you cannot go to bed peacefully, well how about two originals instead of three, achieving 1/3 savings.
When we go for sea waybills, we do not need an original because claiming delivery is not against a document but against an identity.
From that angle, if the DC asks for one original BL and one original BL is presented from a ”Green” carrier, we do not see any big problem. Hence we have reasons to believe that this practice would start with the “EVERGREEN” Line from Taiwan.
www.tolee.com
[edited 4/15/02 8:13:04 PM]
The requirement of 3 originals in BL is no more a necessity now. In the good old days, mailing was the only way to pass documents over continents and mailing was not as dependable as today’s courier services. That is why we need 3 original BsL and 2 drafts, to be dispatched by two or more separate mails. If one mail was lost, we had a spare original(s).
Now with the Internet and the courier services in one mail, who needs 3 originals? For environmental protection and cost saving reasons, we do encourage carriers to issue one original in transport and insurance documents, as well as drafts. If you cannot go to bed peacefully, well how about two originals instead of three, achieving 1/3 savings.
When we go for sea waybills, we do not need an original because claiming delivery is not against a document but against an identity.
From that angle, if the DC asks for one original BL and one original BL is presented from a ”Green” carrier, we do not see any big problem. Hence we have reasons to believe that this practice would start with the “EVERGREEN” Line from Taiwan.
www.tolee.com
[edited 4/15/02 8:13:04 PM]
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larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
negotiable documents/number issued
T.O.
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments on original seawaybills being unnecessary. However, my preferred approach would be to revise UCP 600 to make no distinction between original & copy SWBs. I would likewise recommend the same approach to AWBs and other non-negotiable transport docs.
This in turn would facilitate a transition to eUCP.
I'm not so sure about your comments about original B/Ls. While it is true that sending docs by courier as opposed to mail improves the likelihood of receipt by a large amount, it is not completely foolproof and I have encountered occasions where original sets of documentation have been lost when sent by courier. As you know, in the absence of further original documents of title, one is compelled to rectify the situation by recourse to long term indemnities - not something I would recommend to anyone (except bankers, of course !).
It is unclear whether your comments were intended exclusively for UCP or not, but one assumes that lower value shipments are more likely to be sent on collection & more likely to use mail. Therefore the likelihood of docs being lost in the mail is more common for collections or open account and these would also be more numerous than DC shipments.
Laurence
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments on original seawaybills being unnecessary. However, my preferred approach would be to revise UCP 600 to make no distinction between original & copy SWBs. I would likewise recommend the same approach to AWBs and other non-negotiable transport docs.
This in turn would facilitate a transition to eUCP.
I'm not so sure about your comments about original B/Ls. While it is true that sending docs by courier as opposed to mail improves the likelihood of receipt by a large amount, it is not completely foolproof and I have encountered occasions where original sets of documentation have been lost when sent by courier. As you know, in the absence of further original documents of title, one is compelled to rectify the situation by recourse to long term indemnities - not something I would recommend to anyone (except bankers, of course !).
It is unclear whether your comments were intended exclusively for UCP or not, but one assumes that lower value shipments are more likely to be sent on collection & more likely to use mail. Therefore the likelihood of docs being lost in the mail is more common for collections or open account and these would also be more numerous than DC shipments.
Laurence
negotiable documents/number issued
Laurence,
We agree with your comments on the need for a second original. Rules are made for breaking. If there is a need, there is an original.
The Chinese word for "business" has an implied meaning of "flexible practices". It is also well known that the Chinese word for "risk" has an implied meaning of "opportunities".
www.tolee.com
We agree with your comments on the need for a second original. Rules are made for breaking. If there is a need, there is an original.
The Chinese word for "business" has an implied meaning of "flexible practices". It is also well known that the Chinese word for "risk" has an implied meaning of "opportunities".
www.tolee.com