ICC Digital Library Forum

Alistair,

the situation you referred to in India may be frightening, but it is not confined to India. I have come across similar cases in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Middle East, Europe & USA.

Laurence

T.O.,

I’m afraid I don’t understand any of the last comment you addressed to me. If you want a response you’ll have to clarify it.

Jeremy

Laurence

We have our suspicions that this is happening on many L/Cs we deal with. Given that this is happening , it undermines the independance of a L/C and one wonders how long the integrity of L/Cs will last.

Of course, if there were no disputes and arguements on L/Cs there would be no need for consultants!!

Alistair

Laurence,

Welcome back from your recent trip. From your input, I know that I have named the right person to guess the meaning of my name. Shall I try a new way to respond to your inputs? How about putting my responses alongside yours as appearing below. To make it easily to tell which is from me and which is from you, I have to use all capitals, as there is no choice of rich text in the DC Pro, which I hope can be introduced later. This serves a suggestion for Leo.

In the web, use of all capitals may imply a negative response, an expression of complaints, strong feelings, emotional and things like that. However, this is not the case here. My only purpose is to make it easy to tell which is my response (all in capitals).

T. O. Lee

QUOTE

T.O.

there are several possibilities to your linking your name to your destiny -

Lee is the maritime reference to a sheltered side, out of the wind. However, it does not appear to be in your nature to hide away. YOU KNOW ME WELL. AS A CONSULTANT WE HAVE NOWHERE TO HIDE. WHEN CUSTOMERS CALL US, THEY ARE ON FIRE AND WE SEE OURSELF AS A FIRE FIGHER.

T.O. for Toronto Ontario, close to your present position. AFTER ONE YEAR IN TORONTO, WHEN I LOOK AT MY NAMECARD ON MY DESK, I SSUDENLY REALISED THIS. MY DESINTY IS WRITTEN IN MY NAME! ACORDING TO THE TOURIST GUIDE IN CANADA, “TORONTO” IS AN INDIAN WORD THAT MEANS “GATHERING PLACE”. NO WONDER WHY IT IS THE TRADE AND FINANCE CENTRE OF CANADA. I MOVE TO THE RIGHT PLACE. I AM NOT ALONE WITH THREE BROTHERS AND ONE SISTER HERE.

Lee also suggests you coming to live in Cork, Ireland, which was built around the river Lee. I TOOK A TOUR TO SEE ALL PARTS OF IRELAND DURING THE MAD COW PERIOD, INCLUDING CORK. FOR CHINESE, WATER MEANS MONEY. THEREFORE IT IS NOT A BAD IDEA TO RETIRE IN CORK WHERE THE RIVER LEE IS.

This exercise, however, is suggestive of gypsy fortune-telling, where one interprets a multitude of possibilities by gauging the reaction of the intended recipient and focusing on the option which elicits the most dramatic response. This is not a skill I possess.
THIS IS ALSO THE WAY SOME CHINESE FORTUNE TELLERS MAKE MONEY. THE GYPSY FORTUNERS IN TORONTO ALWAYS ASK YOU TO SPEND BIG MONEY TO DRIVE AWAY THE EVIL SPIRITS. THAT IS WHY I TRY TO KEEP THEM AWAY, EVEN IF THEY OFFER FREE SERVICES, WHICH MAY END UP VERY EXPENSIVE IF ONE IS NOT CAREFUL. HOWEVER, SOME FORTUNE TELLERS, SUCH AS ONE FROM AUSTRALIA, DID PERFORM WELL AND SHE EVEN GAVE ME A RECORDING TAPE FOR WHAT SHE HAD SAID. IF SHE IS NOT RIGHT, THEN MONEY BACK. BUT THE SITUATION UP TO NOW IS, AFTER 10 YEARS - SO FAR SO GOOD.

Laurence

UNQUOTE

T. O.

[edited 8/1/02 7:15:14 PM]

Jeremy,

Here is our task for you, appearing in the last part of our first posting. We fail to understand why it is so difficult for you to understand our postings. We expect a simple answer Yes or No from you to our two questions. And if you have time, please give us your reasons so that we understand your legal basis. As a reward, we would like to tell you a bewildering phenomenon which you have interest to know - Why in the postings from T. O. Lee Consultants Ltd., sometimes we use “we” and sometimes we use “I”.

QUOTE

Jeremy, is it true from your knowledge and experience that "in bad faith" is an intention that is very difficult to prove in a court of law? And the onus of proof falls on the part of the issuing bank?

UNQUOTE

www.tolee.coma

[edited 8/2/02 4:50:49 PM]

T.O.

lest worldwide viewers obtain a false impression from your posting which I am sure was not intended, the Republic of Ireland suffered only one case of Foot and Mouth Disease and this was close to the border with the UK, from which it obviously came. Ireland, unlike the UK, has always depended heavily on its agricultural industries and therefore has typically had more stringent controls to ensure the continuation of its reputation for high quality produce.

I do not remember the statistics for BSE, but again Ireland's few cases hardly compared with the scale in the U.K.

Laurence
[edited 8/2/02 5:34:11 PM]

Laurence,

At the time of my visit to Ireland, the Giant Steps in Belfast was closed for tourists, as many beautiful gardens in the south. I lost a lot of opportunities to see the best side of Ireland. Of course, the situation in Ireland was not so bad as was in England. This I agree. Otherwise I should have no tour.

www.tolee.com

T.O.,

1. DIFFICULTY IN UNDERSTANDING

‘So, Jeremy if you have not seen one’. To what does the word ‘one’ refer? Presumably something in the previous paragraph. And yet there is nothing in the previous paragraph to which the word ‘one’ would seem applicable.

‘MBWA’. This is an abbreviation with which I am not familiar.

2. SIMPLE ANSWER

I’m afraid what one wants in life and what one actually gets are often two entirely different things. Suffice it to say that I agree ‘bad faith’ could well be difficult to prove given the lack of documentary evidence that there is likely to be in the negotiating bank’s records of this. I also agree that the usual principle of law is that the accuser has to prove the accusation and not that the defendant to has to disprove the accusation.

Jeremy

[edited 8/5/02 12:28:53 PM]

Jeremy,

MEANING OF ‘ONE’

The word “one” may mean either one (or both if you will), “a bank or banker who negotiates in bad faith” and/or “an event of negotiating in bad faith”. So we intend to give you some freedom to respond to one or both of “one”. Canadian English should be the same as English English.

If you have a good memory you should know the meaning of MWBA, which we have dealt with many times in the Discussion Forum. Maybe other members can tell you what it is, to prove that what we have said is a fact.

In giving response upon request, you give us the impression that you act like a barrister sitting in a witness box, very cautious and defensive, afraid to fall into the trap of the examiner (not the same meaning as in UCP 500 Article 13 & 14). Actually there is no trap or examination at all. We just wish to get your agreement or disagreement on something we have already commented.

Anyway thanks for a simple answer, although no legal basis is quoted for your opinions.

WHY WE SOMETIMES USE ‘WE’ AND SOMETIMES USE “I” IN OUR POSTINGS?
.
Now we have to honour our undertaking – to tell you why we sometimes use “we” and sometimes use “I” in our postings.

Firstly, all our postings are from T. O. Lee Consultants Ltd. of Toronto.

For those personal opinions from T. O. Lee, the managing director of the company, we use “I/me /my” and signed up with “T. O.” or “T. O. Lee” and maybe also “www.tolee.com”.

For those opinions from other consultants that we have consulted for a particular issue, or for a particular trade practice, not necessarily banking, maybe shipping and insurance, we then use “we/us/our” to indicate that those opinions are not coming from T. O. Lee, as he may agree or disagree with such opinions and signed up with “www.tolee.com”.

I follow the spirit of freedom of speech. Even if I disagree with some one, I still wish to defend his or her right to speak. And I post his or her opinions (on behalf of our company) for the members to decide for themselves, although I may not share such views personally.

Hope now you are clear why we sometimes use “we” and sometimes use “I”.

www.tolee.com

[edited 8/5/02 5:47:24 PM]

Jeremy,

T.O.'s reference to MBWA is, presumably, "Management by Walking Around". I don't remember the original author of this philosophy, as I encountered it a long time ago.

I am surprised that you say that "the usual principle of law is that the accuser has to prove the accusation". This may be so in adversarial jurisdictions such as England & U.S.A., but is not indicative of jurisdictions based on Roman law, such as Scotland and continental countries.

Laurence