One of the documents we require under our L.Cs covering sea- shipments, is a Ceritficate from the Shiping Company or its Agents certifying that the carrying vessel (a) is ISM code certified (b) belongs to Conference or Regular Line.
Of late we receive messages from banks in Europe - Germany to the effect that due to a European Community decree, the issuance of Conference Line certificate is impossible from Oct 18, 2008.
Our friends in other banks also would have received similar messages from German banks.
My question is, if we remove this requirment, what are its implications, especially in respect of insurance coverage.
This august forum of experts may please guide.
Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
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PromodNimkar
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JudithAutié
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Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
According to the Baltic Exchange Glossary :
CONFERENCE - An affiliation of shipowners operating over the same route(s) who agree to charge uniform rates and other terms of carriage. A conference is "closed" if one can enter only by the consent of existing members of the conference. It is "open" if anyone can enter by meeting certain technical and financial standards. Conference members are common carriers
The EU have ruled that in view of "free competition", that such certificates were no longer allowed (from Oct 18th, I understand).
Insurance wise -- well, in order to belong to a conference the vessel and the owners should meet certain criteria, which are supposed to make sure that both the owners and the vessel are fit and solvent --so that if something does go wrong you have a reliable company to deal with.
You also have more "security" in pricing, since the costs have been agreed -- not only the actual freight charges, but also the loading, unloading, stowing etc costs.
Hope this is helpful
Best regards
Judith
CONFERENCE - An affiliation of shipowners operating over the same route(s) who agree to charge uniform rates and other terms of carriage. A conference is "closed" if one can enter only by the consent of existing members of the conference. It is "open" if anyone can enter by meeting certain technical and financial standards. Conference members are common carriers
The EU have ruled that in view of "free competition", that such certificates were no longer allowed (from Oct 18th, I understand).
Insurance wise -- well, in order to belong to a conference the vessel and the owners should meet certain criteria, which are supposed to make sure that both the owners and the vessel are fit and solvent --so that if something does go wrong you have a reliable company to deal with.
You also have more "security" in pricing, since the costs have been agreed -- not only the actual freight charges, but also the loading, unloading, stowing etc costs.
Hope this is helpful
Best regards
Judith
Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
Judith,
Have to admit I know nothing about this EU ‘malarkey’. Can’t find anything on the ‘web’. Do you know of any sites where I can find out more please (purely out of curiosity as I cannot see it being of any significance for a banker)?
Regards, Jeremy
Have to admit I know nothing about this EU ‘malarkey’. Can’t find anything on the ‘web’. Do you know of any sites where I can find out more please (purely out of curiosity as I cannot see it being of any significance for a banker)?
Regards, Jeremy
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JudithAutié
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Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
Jeremy
Frankly I'm not sure where you can find the exact text online but you can try europa.eu
As to why banks would be concerned, I know that many Middle Eastern banks require a certificate that the carrying vessel belongs to a conference or regular line. Therefore if we are to get such a credit that requires such a certificate, and knowing that the obtention of the certificat is not legally possible, we would be handling a credit that was impossible for the exporter to satisfy.
In France, where we have a legal obligation to advise beneficiaries of any such problems, we could be in serious trouble in ignoring this.
And if the exporter did somehow obtain such a certificate, I honestly don't know what legal responsibility a European bank would have if it accepts it.
Aren't doc credits fun?
Best
Judith
Frankly I'm not sure where you can find the exact text online but you can try europa.eu
As to why banks would be concerned, I know that many Middle Eastern banks require a certificate that the carrying vessel belongs to a conference or regular line. Therefore if we are to get such a credit that requires such a certificate, and knowing that the obtention of the certificat is not legally possible, we would be handling a credit that was impossible for the exporter to satisfy.
In France, where we have a legal obligation to advise beneficiaries of any such problems, we could be in serious trouble in ignoring this.
And if the exporter did somehow obtain such a certificate, I honestly don't know what legal responsibility a European bank would have if it accepts it.
Aren't doc credits fun?
Best
Judith
Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
Dear all,
You may find the EU-regulation ( no. 1490/2007 dd. 11 December 2007 ) prohibiting shipping conferences in EU-member states on:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 002:EN:PDF
Best regards
K.Mayrl
You may find the EU-regulation ( no. 1490/2007 dd. 11 December 2007 ) prohibiting shipping conferences in EU-member states on:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 002:EN:PDF
Best regards
K.Mayrl
Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
Thanks, Karl, appreciated.
Judith, thanks also.
Judith, thanks also.
Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
Judith,
Interesting your reference to a legal obligation.
Could you tell what it is exactly.
Here, I thought it would be the carrier's or freight forwarer's duty to advise the parties concerned.
Meilleures salutations
Daniel
Interesting your reference to a legal obligation.
Could you tell what it is exactly.
Here, I thought it would be the carrier's or freight forwarer's duty to advise the parties concerned.
Meilleures salutations
Daniel
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JudithAutié
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Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
Hi Daniel
In France courts have judged that banks have an "obligation de conseil" as professionnals.
Being out of the country now, I don't have any of my reference books, but I know that every time an exporter brings a suit against a bank, the courts are much stricter with the banks.
Asap I'll try to find a reference for you.
Best
Judith
In France courts have judged that banks have an "obligation de conseil" as professionnals.
Being out of the country now, I don't have any of my reference books, but I know that every time an exporter brings a suit against a bank, the courts are much stricter with the banks.
Asap I'll try to find a reference for you.
Best
Judith
Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
Judith,
Thank you very much. I appreciate.
Once, I used to read the French legal cases in the "La Revue Banque". I do not know if it still exists. "Obligation de conseil". Of course, what else as would say M. Clooney. Here, it is called "devoir de conseil" and one of our famous lawyers wrote about it: "la banque n'a pas forcément l'expérience nécessaire pour évaluer quels documents sont nécessaires aux parties" I hope he is right.
Regards
Daniel
Thank you very much. I appreciate.
Once, I used to read the French legal cases in the "La Revue Banque". I do not know if it still exists. "Obligation de conseil". Of course, what else as would say M. Clooney. Here, it is called "devoir de conseil" and one of our famous lawyers wrote about it: "la banque n'a pas forcément l'expérience nécessaire pour évaluer quels documents sont nécessaires aux parties" I hope he is right.
Regards
Daniel
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JudithAutié
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Conference or Regualr Line - B/Ls
Daniel
On the other hand, even if banks don't necessarily know all the documents that would be required for importation (or exportation), they would still have an obligation to point out to a beneficiary that a document that is called for by the credit is unobtainable -- or illegal (such as a negative boycott certificate).
Despite many of our colleagues who want a mechanical checking of documents without any possibility of reasoning, I still believe that document checkers have to be well trained and intelligent, and not robots.
Ooops, now I'm going to get things stirred up again.
Best
Judith
On the other hand, even if banks don't necessarily know all the documents that would be required for importation (or exportation), they would still have an obligation to point out to a beneficiary that a document that is called for by the credit is unobtainable -- or illegal (such as a negative boycott certificate).
Despite many of our colleagues who want a mechanical checking of documents without any possibility of reasoning, I still believe that document checkers have to be well trained and intelligent, and not robots.
Ooops, now I'm going to get things stirred up again.
Best
Judith