documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
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lucettelessard
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:21 pm
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
A credit calls for "beneficiary's certificate signed certificate confirming that goods have been shipped in 20' container". The beneficiary presented a certificate stating just that but made no reference whatsoever to the dc nor to the actual shipment. What is your opinion on this matter: would you call a discrepancy as "unable to link the document to this shipment/dc" or would you consider it acceptable as the credit did not specify that a link should be made.
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PGauntlett
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:25 pm
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
I would reject as the document is meaningless on its own. I've seen ICC opinions where they say that not all docs need a goods description but there must be a link.
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larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
A link must be established, but it does not have to be directly to the DC or shipment. For example, a reference to the relevant invoice no, B/L or container no. should suffice.
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
ALL A MATTER OF SIMPLE COMMON SENSE
There are so many simple common sense rules that need not be going into the UCP 500. Otherwise the UCP 500 would be as thick as a yellow page directory.
LINKAGE BY SIMPLE COMMON SENSE
Linkage is a must. This is also simple common sense. How to determine linkage? Again simple common sense.
WHAT KING SOLOMON DID?
For mother and son linkage, a document checker of today would ask for a DNA certificate! But what would King Solomon do before DNA was discovered? Again simple common sense!
Let us try to tell this story using DC jargons just to create some fun in this otherewise dry discussions.
Once upon a time, two women had disputes over the <title> to a <non-negotiable but original> baby but they could not <present> any <certificate of origin> to support their claims. The dispute was finally brought to King Solomon, the King of wisdom, to <determine on their faces>.
The King used <a reasonable time not to exceed 1/24 of a ruling day> to think this over and then <notified without delay> by verbal <communication> the two <presenters> of the dispute of his decision:
"Since all the <discrepancies> are solely created by this baby. Let him be <disregarded> and placed <at the disposal of> Jack Hopkins, the Silencer of the Lamb, <without any risk and responsibility on my part> and you two would become friends again".
One wowan immediately cried and begged to the King:
"Your Majesty, I am willing to <surrender my title> to the baby on <without recourse> basis. Please don't <dispose of> him in this way".
King Solomon, <without delay>, handed over the baby to her and said:
"You love to the baby is reflected <on your (crying) face> that you <appear> to be the true mother of the baby. You are willing to give him up <without recourse> rather than seeing him die".
King Solomon did not treat this as a non-documentary condition or asked for a birth certificate or DNA certificate from SGS, like some DC practitioners do sometimes. He used only simple common sense!
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 11/25/01 4:53:15 PM]
There are so many simple common sense rules that need not be going into the UCP 500. Otherwise the UCP 500 would be as thick as a yellow page directory.
LINKAGE BY SIMPLE COMMON SENSE
Linkage is a must. This is also simple common sense. How to determine linkage? Again simple common sense.
WHAT KING SOLOMON DID?
For mother and son linkage, a document checker of today would ask for a DNA certificate! But what would King Solomon do before DNA was discovered? Again simple common sense!
Let us try to tell this story using DC jargons just to create some fun in this otherewise dry discussions.
Once upon a time, two women had disputes over the <title> to a <non-negotiable but original> baby but they could not <present> any <certificate of origin> to support their claims. The dispute was finally brought to King Solomon, the King of wisdom, to <determine on their faces>.
The King used <a reasonable time not to exceed 1/24 of a ruling day> to think this over and then <notified without delay> by verbal <communication> the two <presenters> of the dispute of his decision:
"Since all the <discrepancies> are solely created by this baby. Let him be <disregarded> and placed <at the disposal of> Jack Hopkins, the Silencer of the Lamb, <without any risk and responsibility on my part> and you two would become friends again".
One wowan immediately cried and begged to the King:
"Your Majesty, I am willing to <surrender my title> to the baby on <without recourse> basis. Please don't <dispose of> him in this way".
King Solomon, <without delay>, handed over the baby to her and said:
"You love to the baby is reflected <on your (crying) face> that you <appear> to be the true mother of the baby. You are willing to give him up <without recourse> rather than seeing him die".
King Solomon did not treat this as a non-documentary condition or asked for a birth certificate or DNA certificate from SGS, like some DC practitioners do sometimes. He used only simple common sense!
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 11/25/01 4:53:15 PM]
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
Gentlemen,
I would observe that while Article 23 of UCP 400 required ‘linkage’, there is no express requirement in UCP 500. Presumably this is for a good reason (it was causing too many problems?).
Sub-Article 13a of UCP500 states:
‘Compliance of the stipulated documents on their face with the terms and conditions of the Credit, shall be determined by international standard banking practice as reflected in these articles.’
In other words, not just ‘international standard banking practice’ but ‘international standard banking practice AS REFLECTED IN THESE ARTICLES’ [emphasis added].
Therefore, as ‘linkage’ is not covered by UCP 500 I do not see how anyone can contend absence of ‘linkage’ is a breach of an Article of UCP 500. If it is not a breach, per UCP 500 sub-Article 13a (I must stress) the documents are compliant.
[edited 11/23/01 9:39:36 AM: spelling correction]
I would observe that while Article 23 of UCP 400 required ‘linkage’, there is no express requirement in UCP 500. Presumably this is for a good reason (it was causing too many problems?).
Sub-Article 13a of UCP500 states:
‘Compliance of the stipulated documents on their face with the terms and conditions of the Credit, shall be determined by international standard banking practice as reflected in these articles.’
In other words, not just ‘international standard banking practice’ but ‘international standard banking practice AS REFLECTED IN THESE ARTICLES’ [emphasis added].
Therefore, as ‘linkage’ is not covered by UCP 500 I do not see how anyone can contend absence of ‘linkage’ is a breach of an Article of UCP 500. If it is not a breach, per UCP 500 sub-Article 13a (I must stress) the documents are compliant.
[edited 11/23/01 9:39:36 AM: spelling correction]
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hatemshehab
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:19 pm
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
---------- INTRODUCTION ----------
Dear Mr. Lee,
Although the story here is different from what you asked, it is a good one to serve the purpose, as I really like this story. This is a retold Sufi teaching tale whose origins are said to date back to the ninth century. It is one of those tales with a certain air of mystery, which I have found is most effective to tell, particularly if you have been dealing with such issues as dealing with change or creativity and Learning.
---------- THE TALE -----------
******* How the Waters Changed *******
One day, many thousands of years ago, the whole of mankind was given a warning. Khdir, who was Moses’ teacher, summoned all the people together saying, ‘I give you warning, that very soon, all the water in the world I going to dry up. And when it does, it will eventually be replaced with new water, which will make anyone who drinks it insane. You must make provision now and store away as much of the pure water as you can.’
Only one man out of the thousands there listened and understood Khdir’s message. He toiled night and day making journeys from the rive to his cave, storing as much of the pure water as he could.
On the date that Khdir had predicted, sure enough, all the rivers and streams dried up, and all the wells ran dry and the man who had listened to Khdir’s message did as he was instructed, and went back to his hideout and drank his preserved water.
And after a short time, as Khdir had also predicted, the water began to flow again but the water was impure and made all who drank it insane. Out of curiosity the man who had his own reserve of water went to meet with some of the people who had been his friends. But he found that the men who drank this new water were talking and acting in very strange ways, and they had no recollection of him or of Khdir’s warning.
He realized with horror, as he tried to talk to them and reason with them, that they thought he was the madman – and some of them were hostile towards him, and some of them were compassionate – but none of them was understanding.
So, for some time, the lone man returned to his cave each day to drink his carefully preserved water. But in the end, he could bear the loneliness and isolation no longer. He drank the new water, and became mad just like the rest.
In years to come, he became known as the man who had been mad and miraculously restored to sanity.
------------- MORAL -------------
It takes courage to be the one who listens, learn and understands, and the one who stands their ground. Sometimes it is easier to give up and go with the flow of the rest.
Dear Mr. Lee,
Although the story here is different from what you asked, it is a good one to serve the purpose, as I really like this story. This is a retold Sufi teaching tale whose origins are said to date back to the ninth century. It is one of those tales with a certain air of mystery, which I have found is most effective to tell, particularly if you have been dealing with such issues as dealing with change or creativity and Learning.
---------- THE TALE -----------
******* How the Waters Changed *******
One day, many thousands of years ago, the whole of mankind was given a warning. Khdir, who was Moses’ teacher, summoned all the people together saying, ‘I give you warning, that very soon, all the water in the world I going to dry up. And when it does, it will eventually be replaced with new water, which will make anyone who drinks it insane. You must make provision now and store away as much of the pure water as you can.’
Only one man out of the thousands there listened and understood Khdir’s message. He toiled night and day making journeys from the rive to his cave, storing as much of the pure water as he could.
On the date that Khdir had predicted, sure enough, all the rivers and streams dried up, and all the wells ran dry and the man who had listened to Khdir’s message did as he was instructed, and went back to his hideout and drank his preserved water.
And after a short time, as Khdir had also predicted, the water began to flow again but the water was impure and made all who drank it insane. Out of curiosity the man who had his own reserve of water went to meet with some of the people who had been his friends. But he found that the men who drank this new water were talking and acting in very strange ways, and they had no recollection of him or of Khdir’s warning.
He realized with horror, as he tried to talk to them and reason with them, that they thought he was the madman – and some of them were hostile towards him, and some of them were compassionate – but none of them was understanding.
So, for some time, the lone man returned to his cave each day to drink his carefully preserved water. But in the end, he could bear the loneliness and isolation no longer. He drank the new water, and became mad just like the rest.
In years to come, he became known as the man who had been mad and miraculously restored to sanity.
------------- MORAL -------------
It takes courage to be the one who listens, learn and understands, and the one who stands their ground. Sometimes it is easier to give up and go with the flow of the rest.
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
Dear Hatem,
WE ARE JUDGED BY COMMON STANDARD
We hold a different view after being inspired by your story. Whether a man is insane or not is to be determined by international standard "manning" practice as reflected by the UCP (U Can Pretend).
When we were born or made (if you are a Christian), we were naked by default (to borrow a computer jargon here). If you try to go out naked in 2001, you just come back to original but the international standard "manning" practice has changed in the meantime and you would be seen as insane and maybe also violating the law, which is based on changing practice - from naked to clothed.
HOW TO BE WISE AND HAPPY?
To be too bright or too stupid - the result is the same - you would be rejected by the community who are only mediocre. Being too learned may not be a good thing sometimes. You would not be happy as you know too much but you cannot change the world.
However, if you are really intelligent, you should know how to handle people around you and make yourself very happy by such encounter. That is what we learn from Buddhism.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 11/25/01 3:34:35 PM]
WE ARE JUDGED BY COMMON STANDARD
We hold a different view after being inspired by your story. Whether a man is insane or not is to be determined by international standard "manning" practice as reflected by the UCP (U Can Pretend).
When we were born or made (if you are a Christian), we were naked by default (to borrow a computer jargon here). If you try to go out naked in 2001, you just come back to original but the international standard "manning" practice has changed in the meantime and you would be seen as insane and maybe also violating the law, which is based on changing practice - from naked to clothed.
HOW TO BE WISE AND HAPPY?
To be too bright or too stupid - the result is the same - you would be rejected by the community who are only mediocre. Being too learned may not be a good thing sometimes. You would not be happy as you know too much but you cannot change the world.
However, if you are really intelligent, you should know how to handle people around you and make yourself very happy by such encounter. That is what we learn from Buddhism.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 11/25/01 3:34:35 PM]
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hatemshehab
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:19 pm
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
I agree with you that a smart person should know how to negotiate his way through in this life keeping in mind the revised American international standard practice (ISP). One should strive not to be blinkered to thinking that there is only one street to walk down or one-way of doing things. Taking one step back, and looking around can give us a whole new perspective on our lives. However the fact that remains is that unless we have a clear notion in our heads of what our desired outcome looks, sounds or feels and unless we are prepared to take action and change, it is unlikely that we will achieve our goals.
As for handling people , yes you are right, because human interaction is not as easy as pushing a computer button, and if one thinks so then it is at his peril.
As for handling people , yes you are right, because human interaction is not as easy as pushing a computer button, and if one thinks so then it is at his peril.
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
THE KING SOLOMON STORY TOLD IN DC JARGONS
Since Hatem told another story upon our request rather than the King Solomon story, let us try to tell this story using DC jargons just to create some fun in this otherwise dry discussions.
Once upon a time, two women had disputes over the <title> to a <non-negotiable but original> baby but they could not <present> any <certificate of origin> to support their claims. The dispute was finally brought to King Solomon, the King of wisdom, to <determine on their faces>.
The King used <a reasonable time of not exceeding 1/24 of a ruling day> to think this over and then <notified without delay> by verbal <communication> the two <presenters> of the dispute of his decision:
"Since all the <discrepancies> are solely created by this baby. Let him be <disregarded> and placed <at the disposal of> Jack Hopkins, the Silencer of the Lamb, <without any risk and responsibility on my part> and you two would become friends again".
One wowan immediately cried and begged to the King:
"Your Majesty, I am willing to <surrender my title> to the baby on <without recourse> basis. Please don't <dispose of> him in this way".
King Solomon, <without delay>, handed over the baby to her and said:
"You love to the baby is reflected <on your (crying) face> that you <appear> to be the true mother of the baby. You are willing to give him up <without recourse> rather than seeing him die".
King Solomon did not treat this as a non-documentary condition or asked for a birth certificate or DNA certificate from SGS, like some DC practitioners do sometimes. He used only simple common sense!
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 11/25/01 4:55:34 PM]
Since Hatem told another story upon our request rather than the King Solomon story, let us try to tell this story using DC jargons just to create some fun in this otherwise dry discussions.
Once upon a time, two women had disputes over the <title> to a <non-negotiable but original> baby but they could not <present> any <certificate of origin> to support their claims. The dispute was finally brought to King Solomon, the King of wisdom, to <determine on their faces>.
The King used <a reasonable time of not exceeding 1/24 of a ruling day> to think this over and then <notified without delay> by verbal <communication> the two <presenters> of the dispute of his decision:
"Since all the <discrepancies> are solely created by this baby. Let him be <disregarded> and placed <at the disposal of> Jack Hopkins, the Silencer of the Lamb, <without any risk and responsibility on my part> and you two would become friends again".
One wowan immediately cried and begged to the King:
"Your Majesty, I am willing to <surrender my title> to the baby on <without recourse> basis. Please don't <dispose of> him in this way".
King Solomon, <without delay>, handed over the baby to her and said:
"You love to the baby is reflected <on your (crying) face> that you <appear> to be the true mother of the baby. You are willing to give him up <without recourse> rather than seeing him die".
King Solomon did not treat this as a non-documentary condition or asked for a birth certificate or DNA certificate from SGS, like some DC practitioners do sometimes. He used only simple common sense!
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 11/25/01 4:55:34 PM]
documents presented do not refer to dc or shipment
I have found the above disscussion very interesting. I also advocate the “international banking practice” as much as I can. But I do not believe that we, as D/C checkers, are guided only by that international standard banking practice which is “REFLECTED IN THESE ARTICLES’. This might be in some cases very problematic.
I also agree with the concept of “common sense”, but we all know that our “common sense” tends to differ so we must use it with “common sense” as well. So if there is a “conflict” between our “common sense” and “international standard banking practice”, what I hope it is not so often, then “international standard banking practice” prevails.
Re. Issue of “linkage”. I believe that there must be a linkage of all documents to the D/C as a whole. This linkage is established by direct linkage as reflecting perhaps an LC number or the same shipment, numbers, route on other documents etc.).
If the document has no “direct linkage” to other documents but it is not inconsistent with them and also complies to the L/C terms and conditions, it is also “linked to the L/C”.
In this particular case mentioned above I would accept the documents as compliant.
Regards,
Pavel Andrle
I also agree with the concept of “common sense”, but we all know that our “common sense” tends to differ so we must use it with “common sense” as well. So if there is a “conflict” between our “common sense” and “international standard banking practice”, what I hope it is not so often, then “international standard banking practice” prevails.
Re. Issue of “linkage”. I believe that there must be a linkage of all documents to the D/C as a whole. This linkage is established by direct linkage as reflecting perhaps an LC number or the same shipment, numbers, route on other documents etc.).
If the document has no “direct linkage” to other documents but it is not inconsistent with them and also complies to the L/C terms and conditions, it is also “linked to the L/C”.
In this particular case mentioned above I would accept the documents as compliant.
Regards,
Pavel Andrle