Query one
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Under a LC calls for charter party bills of lading. A bills of lading with the following details submitted.
. titled
'Ocean bill of lading'
(to be used with charter party)
==========
. on the box 'freight as per charter party agreement dated........' not showing the agreement date
. without other indications that it is subject to a charter party
I would like to know whether the title of bills of lading i.e. ocean bill of lading (to be used with charter party) can be regarded as an indication it is subject to a charter party if the box of 'freight term as per ....' is blanked.
Query 2
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If a LC calls for Forwarder Bills of lading, may an ocean bills of lading e.g. issued by APL and fulfilled all the requirements of art. 23 can be accepted.
(May be the credit applicant consider that the freight charged by the forwarder is lower than the shipping company and freight will be paid by appliant)
.
Query 3
--------
If the ocean bills of lading signed as per below can be accepted if LC calls for ocean bills of lading>
For ABC Shipping Co. as carrier
................................
CDE forwarding Co.
3 queries about bills of lading
-
larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
3 queries about bills of lading
Query one
Article 25a i deals with this conclusively when it says that banks will accept a document however named which contains any indication that it is subject ot a charter party.
Query two
Forwarder Bs/L are dealt with by Article 30. If the B/L presented complies with this Article, it is acceptable, regardless of whether it may also comply with Article 23, which is more stringent.
Query three
This is acceptable. Please see ICC Position Paper No. 4 which deals with acceptable forms of signature.
Article 25a i deals with this conclusively when it says that banks will accept a document however named which contains any indication that it is subject ot a charter party.
Query two
Forwarder Bs/L are dealt with by Article 30. If the B/L presented complies with this Article, it is acceptable, regardless of whether it may also comply with Article 23, which is more stringent.
Query three
This is acceptable. Please see ICC Position Paper No. 4 which deals with acceptable forms of signature.
3 queries about bills of lading
We would like to give more in-depth comments to the three queries raised.
HOW TO DETERMINE CHARTER PARTY B/L?
Q1 There are many ways to determine whether a B/L is a charter party B/L (C/P B/L) or not. One of the ways is to see if there is any BIMCO code therein, such as the more popular GENCON code for genereal merchandise.
Another way, not being exclusive, is that the C/P B/L format in general may be quite different from that of the traditional marine/ocean B/L. This appears to be the job of an expert.
MEANING OF A FORWARDER'S B/L
Q2 in the UCP 500, "forwarder's B/L" should mean a B/L, however named, including but not limited to "house B/L", where the freight forwarder is acting/signing/issuing as a carrier or as an agent of the carrier, whether being a "contractual carrier" under the interpretation of the Hamburg Rules, or as an "actual carrier" under the interpretations of the Hague, the Hague/Visby or the Hamburg Rules.
CORRECT SIGNATORY IN B/L
Q3 From our experience in dealing with B/L disputes related to singatory, we would recommend adding the magic word "agent" in the singatory box to avoid unnecessary arguments with certain dogmatic document examiners.
ICC POSITION PAPER NO. 4 EXAMPLES ARE NON-EXCLUSIVE
By the way, the signatory examples given in ICC Position Paper No. 4 are non-exclusive, as confirmed to us by the author, Mr. Charles del Busto. So there may be other ways to sign a B/L, which are provided in our website.
DISCLAIMERS:
The opinions, comments and/or advices expressed here are solely for discussion or debating purposes. They may change with time, for example, when new perspectives are taken or after new developments or changes in trade customs and practices are seen in the respective fields. You should not rely on or act accordingly to such opinions, comments and/or advices and should seek professional opinions from your own lawyers, experts and/or consultants. We do not assume any liability or responsibility for any damages, losses or consequences of whatever nature, whether directly or indirectly related to or caused by our opinions, comments and/or advices.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 12/27/01 5:55:25 PM]
HOW TO DETERMINE CHARTER PARTY B/L?
Q1 There are many ways to determine whether a B/L is a charter party B/L (C/P B/L) or not. One of the ways is to see if there is any BIMCO code therein, such as the more popular GENCON code for genereal merchandise.
Another way, not being exclusive, is that the C/P B/L format in general may be quite different from that of the traditional marine/ocean B/L. This appears to be the job of an expert.
MEANING OF A FORWARDER'S B/L
Q2 in the UCP 500, "forwarder's B/L" should mean a B/L, however named, including but not limited to "house B/L", where the freight forwarder is acting/signing/issuing as a carrier or as an agent of the carrier, whether being a "contractual carrier" under the interpretation of the Hamburg Rules, or as an "actual carrier" under the interpretations of the Hague, the Hague/Visby or the Hamburg Rules.
CORRECT SIGNATORY IN B/L
Q3 From our experience in dealing with B/L disputes related to singatory, we would recommend adding the magic word "agent" in the singatory box to avoid unnecessary arguments with certain dogmatic document examiners.
ICC POSITION PAPER NO. 4 EXAMPLES ARE NON-EXCLUSIVE
By the way, the signatory examples given in ICC Position Paper No. 4 are non-exclusive, as confirmed to us by the author, Mr. Charles del Busto. So there may be other ways to sign a B/L, which are provided in our website.
DISCLAIMERS:
The opinions, comments and/or advices expressed here are solely for discussion or debating purposes. They may change with time, for example, when new perspectives are taken or after new developments or changes in trade customs and practices are seen in the respective fields. You should not rely on or act accordingly to such opinions, comments and/or advices and should seek professional opinions from your own lawyers, experts and/or consultants. We do not assume any liability or responsibility for any damages, losses or consequences of whatever nature, whether directly or indirectly related to or caused by our opinions, comments and/or advices.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 12/27/01 5:55:25 PM]
3 queries about bills of lading
Mr. Lee, thanks to your valuable information, can you give me more on the term of " BIMCO " and do you think the phase of ( to be used with charter party ) without fill in the charter party agreement date is sufficient to comply with the reuqirement of Art25ai ( any indication that is subject to charter party )
Thanks
Thanks
3 queries about bills of lading
From our consultancy experience, it is risky trying to answer your query purely based on limited information provided over the internet. We must see the actual B/L before we can go further.
By the way "BIMCO" is the "ICC" in shipping industry that authorizes or otherwise standardizes all the popular charter parties and other documents used in the shipping industry. The full name is Baltic and International Maritime Council. We are approached by BIMCO to help in standardization of the LOI (letter of indemnity) used in the shipping and banking community.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 9/14/01 6:04:50 AM]
By the way "BIMCO" is the "ICC" in shipping industry that authorizes or otherwise standardizes all the popular charter parties and other documents used in the shipping industry. The full name is Baltic and International Maritime Council. We are approached by BIMCO to help in standardization of the LOI (letter of indemnity) used in the shipping and banking community.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 9/14/01 6:04:50 AM]
3 queries about bills of lading
I while I have no desire to open up another front in the battle (strictly metaphorical and humorous analogies, I must stress) between bankers and consultants, I am not convinced by Laurence’s (and perhaps T.O.’s?) apparent belief that where a credit calls for a ‘forwarders bill of lading’ it does not have to meet the terms of Article 23. Rather than advancing my own arguments, I shall content myself by quoting a portion Opinion R219, which I believe is germane to the issue:
‘In order to be acceptable as a Marine Bill of Lading, the FBL must satisfy the requirements of UCP 500 Article 23. This means that the FBL must inter alia comply with the provisions regarding indication of the carrier, signing or authentication, loading on board, indication of the port of loading and the port of discharge. Since the FBL is designed for issuance by a freight forwarder , UCP 500 Article 30 has ALSO to be complied with and has to be read in conjunction with UCP 500 sub-Article 23(a)(i).’ [emphasis added]
In other words, Article 30 only supplements the relevant sub-Article ‘a i’ in Articles 23, 24, 26 – 28 (Article 29 not referring to either a ‘carrier’ or ‘multimodal transport operator’).
Apologies to all if there has been any misunderstanding on my part of Laurence's views.
[edited 9/14/01 12:53:11 PM]
[edited 9/14/01 1:54:44 PM]
‘In order to be acceptable as a Marine Bill of Lading, the FBL must satisfy the requirements of UCP 500 Article 23. This means that the FBL must inter alia comply with the provisions regarding indication of the carrier, signing or authentication, loading on board, indication of the port of loading and the port of discharge. Since the FBL is designed for issuance by a freight forwarder , UCP 500 Article 30 has ALSO to be complied with and has to be read in conjunction with UCP 500 sub-Article 23(a)(i).’ [emphasis added]
In other words, Article 30 only supplements the relevant sub-Article ‘a i’ in Articles 23, 24, 26 – 28 (Article 29 not referring to either a ‘carrier’ or ‘multimodal transport operator’).
Apologies to all if there has been any misunderstanding on my part of Laurence's views.
[edited 9/14/01 12:53:11 PM]
[edited 9/14/01 1:54:44 PM]
3 queries about bills of lading
Dear Jeremy,
Maybe you and we are living in different planets as you have mentioned in one of your early response.
Would you kinldy clarify and pinpoint in which of our statement here that may lead you, or mislead you if you will, to think that we regard that "a forwarder's B/L needs not follow UCP 500 Article 23?"
WHAT ARTICLE 30 IS ALL ABOUT?
Our interpretation of Article 30 is that it only deals with the singatory part, and not dealing with the full data content of a forwarder's transport document, which can be an air, sea, surface or multimodal transport document and NOT as you have focused, only concerning a B/L. So Articles 24, 26 and 27 may also affect Article 30, not only Article 23 as you have focused.
PUTTING WORDS IN YOUR "OPPONENT'S" MOUTH IS NOT A GOOD PRACTICE
Please read messages from others carefully and not with a tinted spectacles. Please also do not try to put words into other's mouth when you disagree with them. This is not the first time that you do this, to be frank. And we are quite annoyed at this although we respect you for your other good qualities. We must point out to you that this is your bad habit. And we have forgiven you this time. No need to apologise. If you agree to cut this habit, we would be very happy indeed.
OUR TRANSPORT DOCUMENTS BACKGROUND
We have the need to let you know our background to avoid future misunderstanding. We have been a columnist in a Lloyd's maritime magazine and transport documents in DC is our strength. We were a manager in the freight forwarding arm of the UK Uniliver Group in Hong Kong. We shipped hanging garments in containers to Littlewoods chainstores in London. To tell you a secret, we have provided consultancy on transport documents to one very important member of the UCP 500 Working Party. We have also provided transport documents examination services to a bank group in Hong Kong, being a Member of the United Nations International Multimodal Transport Association in Geneva. If you are not clear what we mean, please clarify with us before you put silly things in our mouth that may have tinted our professional image.
Thanks
DISCLAIMERS:
The opinions, comments and/or advices expressed here are solely for discussion or debating purposes. They may change with time, for example, when new perspectives are taken or after new developments or changes in trade customs and practices are seen in the respective fields. You should not rely on or act accordingly to such opinions, comments and/or advices and should seek professional opinions from your own lawyers, experts and/or consultants. We do not assume any liability or responsibility for any damages, losses or consequences of whatever nature, whether directly or indirectly related to or caused by our opinions, comments and/or advices.
T. O.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 12/27/01 5:52:42 PM]
Maybe you and we are living in different planets as you have mentioned in one of your early response.
Would you kinldy clarify and pinpoint in which of our statement here that may lead you, or mislead you if you will, to think that we regard that "a forwarder's B/L needs not follow UCP 500 Article 23?"
WHAT ARTICLE 30 IS ALL ABOUT?
Our interpretation of Article 30 is that it only deals with the singatory part, and not dealing with the full data content of a forwarder's transport document, which can be an air, sea, surface or multimodal transport document and NOT as you have focused, only concerning a B/L. So Articles 24, 26 and 27 may also affect Article 30, not only Article 23 as you have focused.
PUTTING WORDS IN YOUR "OPPONENT'S" MOUTH IS NOT A GOOD PRACTICE
Please read messages from others carefully and not with a tinted spectacles. Please also do not try to put words into other's mouth when you disagree with them. This is not the first time that you do this, to be frank. And we are quite annoyed at this although we respect you for your other good qualities. We must point out to you that this is your bad habit. And we have forgiven you this time. No need to apologise. If you agree to cut this habit, we would be very happy indeed.
OUR TRANSPORT DOCUMENTS BACKGROUND
We have the need to let you know our background to avoid future misunderstanding. We have been a columnist in a Lloyd's maritime magazine and transport documents in DC is our strength. We were a manager in the freight forwarding arm of the UK Uniliver Group in Hong Kong. We shipped hanging garments in containers to Littlewoods chainstores in London. To tell you a secret, we have provided consultancy on transport documents to one very important member of the UCP 500 Working Party. We have also provided transport documents examination services to a bank group in Hong Kong, being a Member of the United Nations International Multimodal Transport Association in Geneva. If you are not clear what we mean, please clarify with us before you put silly things in our mouth that may have tinted our professional image.
Thanks
DISCLAIMERS:
The opinions, comments and/or advices expressed here are solely for discussion or debating purposes. They may change with time, for example, when new perspectives are taken or after new developments or changes in trade customs and practices are seen in the respective fields. You should not rely on or act accordingly to such opinions, comments and/or advices and should seek professional opinions from your own lawyers, experts and/or consultants. We do not assume any liability or responsibility for any damages, losses or consequences of whatever nature, whether directly or indirectly related to or caused by our opinions, comments and/or advices.
T. O.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 12/27/01 5:52:42 PM]
3 queries about bills of lading
THIS IS BIRMINGHAM CALLING.
T.O.,
To answer your question, as you did not appear to raise Laurence’s comments on this particular matter in your own posting, I thought you might (I stress the word ‘might’) share what seem to be -but may well not be- his views.
You may now consider me as being disabused of any doubts on the matter I may have had.
Jeremy.
T.O.,
To answer your question, as you did not appear to raise Laurence’s comments on this particular matter in your own posting, I thought you might (I stress the word ‘might’) share what seem to be -but may well not be- his views.
You may now consider me as being disabused of any doubts on the matter I may have had.
Jeremy.
3 queries about bills of lading
Dear Jeremy,
OUR POSITION/ATTITUDE
Our position/attitude in taking part in the DC Pro discussions is that when we disagree with others' opinions, or spotting that some members say something which are not 100% precise or correct, we would not wish to pick on that and embarrass them, unless we are challenged. To us, the DC Pro is not a "battle field" (as you may consider). It is a garden of knowledge and experience exchange, as agreed by Hatem. We do not wish to make others uncomfortable. To be frank, one of them may be our future customer. And we maybe wrong also, who knows?
In your case, we do not force you to answer our questions for the same reason. A Chinese proverb says: "Do not chase the robber to a dead end or he would fight back furiously". That is our policy, not to press people too hard. But if our opinions are challenged, we have to defend with all our strengths.
SILENCE DOES NOT MEAN ACCEPTANCE
So, after understanding our stance, please do not think that when we are silent to an idea or opinion, we are endorsing it or agree with it. As a seasoned DC practitioner, you should know that "silence does not mean acceptance" under the Common Law, since you have told us that you also get involved in litigation in your bank. Then how come you...
By the way, we should not have appeared to be so stupid to consider that a freight forwarder's B/L needs not mention ports of loading and discharge and things like that.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 9/15/01 6:17:43 AM]
OUR POSITION/ATTITUDE
Our position/attitude in taking part in the DC Pro discussions is that when we disagree with others' opinions, or spotting that some members say something which are not 100% precise or correct, we would not wish to pick on that and embarrass them, unless we are challenged. To us, the DC Pro is not a "battle field" (as you may consider). It is a garden of knowledge and experience exchange, as agreed by Hatem. We do not wish to make others uncomfortable. To be frank, one of them may be our future customer. And we maybe wrong also, who knows?
In your case, we do not force you to answer our questions for the same reason. A Chinese proverb says: "Do not chase the robber to a dead end or he would fight back furiously". That is our policy, not to press people too hard. But if our opinions are challenged, we have to defend with all our strengths.
SILENCE DOES NOT MEAN ACCEPTANCE
So, after understanding our stance, please do not think that when we are silent to an idea or opinion, we are endorsing it or agree with it. As a seasoned DC practitioner, you should know that "silence does not mean acceptance" under the Common Law, since you have told us that you also get involved in litigation in your bank. Then how come you...
By the way, we should not have appeared to be so stupid to consider that a freight forwarder's B/L needs not mention ports of loading and discharge and things like that.
http://www.tolee.com
[edited 9/15/01 6:17:43 AM]
3 queries about bills of lading
T.O.,
Your words of wisdom are noted.
Jeremy.
Your words of wisdom are noted.
Jeremy.