To avoid unnecessary arguments, which we are sure that would happen here, shall we limit the scope of our discussions with a few definitions on the terms used in our query?
For this query, "non-banking knowledge" means any knowledge that is related to document examination in DC operations, such as basic knowledge on transports (Air, sea, surface and multimodal transports), maritime chartering, cargo insurance, commodity trade practices (particularly for those working in commodity desks), Incoterms 2000, commercial laws, (particularly law of contract), cargo inspection, SWIFT operation manual and the like. Examples given here, like examples given by ICC Banking Commission in ICC documents, are not exhaustive.
For the term “progressive banker” used here, it means a manager, VP or senior official in the DC department who has the responsibility of deciding whether a discrepancy pointed out by the first and second checker is a valid discrepancy or not. He or she also believes in delivering works of excellence and is fully committed to providing a “better than average” service to his or her customers.
By "examination of documents", we also intend to include detection of "footprints" in fraudulent documents.
We have to deal with this issue on two levels: (1) from UCP Article 13 & 14 level and (2) from risk management level. For both levels you may have two answers, yes and no. That means we expect four different kinds of responses from members here. Bear in mind that UCP is not specific as to the scope of non-banking knowledge that a banker should possess. It is difficult to define.
With the simple "rules" given above, we hope there should not be any yellow or red cards or offside given to the players.
Let us kick off from here and we expect the main players to be Jeremy, Laurence and Dimitri (3R?). Where is our old friend Hatem. We miss him recently. Would our friends from KSA tell us where he is now?
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/13/02 4:43:02 PM]
Should a progressive banker acquire non-banking knowledge to
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larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
Should a progressive banker acquire non-banking knowledge to
T.O.,
it will come as no surprise that my views are similar to yours on this subject, but the ability of a banker to acquire such extra knowledge may be predicated on factors other than a willingness to so acquire it. Some large banks may be organised so that a senior person has this knowledge and wields it like a sword to vanquish any opinions opposed to his own within his organisation. Those less senior in such organisations tend to fall into two camps - blindly accept the senior person's viewpoint or tacitly accept it until such time as they are better equipped with the knowledge to challenge this opinion. I suggest that the former is the majority as it requires no extra work and is not seen as threatening to the senior person. It is not uncommon in such organisations for the same senior person to control training at least at his location. He can then ensure that only his viewpoint is put across and he may also limit the training budget on what he determines as a "need to know" basis for Junior staff. This affords him the somewhat Machiavellian control needed to make his power base virtually impenetrable. Unremarkably, he also ensures that no independent trainer enters the forum to dilute his power. I accept that while this is a generalisation of a large bank, it is intended to indicate a small proportion of such banks who take this or similar approaches to training.
Small banks or branches of banks have other more practical difficulties in attaining such knowledge.
Laurence
it will come as no surprise that my views are similar to yours on this subject, but the ability of a banker to acquire such extra knowledge may be predicated on factors other than a willingness to so acquire it. Some large banks may be organised so that a senior person has this knowledge and wields it like a sword to vanquish any opinions opposed to his own within his organisation. Those less senior in such organisations tend to fall into two camps - blindly accept the senior person's viewpoint or tacitly accept it until such time as they are better equipped with the knowledge to challenge this opinion. I suggest that the former is the majority as it requires no extra work and is not seen as threatening to the senior person. It is not uncommon in such organisations for the same senior person to control training at least at his location. He can then ensure that only his viewpoint is put across and he may also limit the training budget on what he determines as a "need to know" basis for Junior staff. This affords him the somewhat Machiavellian control needed to make his power base virtually impenetrable. Unremarkably, he also ensures that no independent trainer enters the forum to dilute his power. I accept that while this is a generalisation of a large bank, it is intended to indicate a small proportion of such banks who take this or similar approaches to training.
Small banks or branches of banks have other more practical difficulties in attaining such knowledge.
Laurence
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DimitriScoufaridis
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:17 pm
Should a progressive banker acquire non-banking knowledge to
T.O. Lee,
Let me depart from the benefits of the DC mentioned in the ICC Guide to DC Operations for the UCP 500 (pp.25-26) one of them being the assurance of expert examination of documents. In addition, we are now seeing ISBP for DC’s being prepared in an effort not only to assist in the proper application of UCP 500 but in my opinion, it will have a positive impact on DC operations in general. In short, expert trade knowledge is a must, otherwise how do you expect a DC unit manager to be able to tell whether “machinery laid on flat racks” vs. “machinery loaded in containers” is a discrepancy or not.
However, this issue has many faces:
1. Is Trade Operations/Trade Product Management seen as a core business within a financial institution? If yes, how much attention is it actually being given? Is it considered a profit or a cost center? If it is a profit center, does it generate enough revenues, a good revenue-to-expense ratio to justify its presence?
2. As a result of the point mentioned above and among other objectives that a strategic business plan or an operating plan would include would be the one related to training. Certainly a training plan would be based on specific training needs but would be drawn within budget constraints. Some banks have their own training centers, where the trainers are senior line staff who pass their knowledge to the trainees. Others suffice with limited, informal/in-house training. From my experience, I do not think that the trainer’s aim is to seek power through such training sessions.
3. Considering points 1 & 2 above, getting the right expert, non-banking knowledge you have described has to be sought outside the bank. This is not always practical or economical. It is rather an expensive affair that I believe banks tend to avoid.
Dimitri
Let me depart from the benefits of the DC mentioned in the ICC Guide to DC Operations for the UCP 500 (pp.25-26) one of them being the assurance of expert examination of documents. In addition, we are now seeing ISBP for DC’s being prepared in an effort not only to assist in the proper application of UCP 500 but in my opinion, it will have a positive impact on DC operations in general. In short, expert trade knowledge is a must, otherwise how do you expect a DC unit manager to be able to tell whether “machinery laid on flat racks” vs. “machinery loaded in containers” is a discrepancy or not.
However, this issue has many faces:
1. Is Trade Operations/Trade Product Management seen as a core business within a financial institution? If yes, how much attention is it actually being given? Is it considered a profit or a cost center? If it is a profit center, does it generate enough revenues, a good revenue-to-expense ratio to justify its presence?
2. As a result of the point mentioned above and among other objectives that a strategic business plan or an operating plan would include would be the one related to training. Certainly a training plan would be based on specific training needs but would be drawn within budget constraints. Some banks have their own training centers, where the trainers are senior line staff who pass their knowledge to the trainees. Others suffice with limited, informal/in-house training. From my experience, I do not think that the trainer’s aim is to seek power through such training sessions.
3. Considering points 1 & 2 above, getting the right expert, non-banking knowledge you have described has to be sought outside the bank. This is not always practical or economical. It is rather an expensive affair that I believe banks tend to avoid.
Dimitri
Should a progressive banker acquire non-banking knowledge to
Laurence and Dimitri,
We asked why the participants to our DC workshops did not have a copy of the ICC Position Paper and the answer was: “Our senior manger kept it under lock and key so that he could continue to dominate the opinions on determination of discrepancies”. This is another interpretation of “Knowledge is power.”
One smart participant gave me the right answer to a case study only when he met me privately in a coffee break but remained silent all the time. I asked him why and he said: “Well my senior manger gave a wrong answer and I don’t want him to lose face in front of bankers from other banks. Otherwise…you know what he would do to me…”
So it would not be surprised that a senior manager may resist an outsider expert to conduct the training for his subordinates. What if the expert says something different form his? He may lose face.
However, we have also met some open-minded senior managers who don’t mind to learn together with his subordinates in the same workshop.
One of the gimmicks from experienced trainers is that for training to the juniors, they name it “training courses”. For senior mangers, they label the same stuff as “development programmes”.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/15/02 9:50:34 PM]
We asked why the participants to our DC workshops did not have a copy of the ICC Position Paper and the answer was: “Our senior manger kept it under lock and key so that he could continue to dominate the opinions on determination of discrepancies”. This is another interpretation of “Knowledge is power.”
One smart participant gave me the right answer to a case study only when he met me privately in a coffee break but remained silent all the time. I asked him why and he said: “Well my senior manger gave a wrong answer and I don’t want him to lose face in front of bankers from other banks. Otherwise…you know what he would do to me…”
So it would not be surprised that a senior manager may resist an outsider expert to conduct the training for his subordinates. What if the expert says something different form his? He may lose face.
However, we have also met some open-minded senior managers who don’t mind to learn together with his subordinates in the same workshop.
One of the gimmicks from experienced trainers is that for training to the juniors, they name it “training courses”. For senior mangers, they label the same stuff as “development programmes”.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/15/02 9:50:34 PM]
Should a progressive banker acquire non-banking knowledge to
T.O.,
Re Hatem, my understanding is that he has changed, or is about to change, employers. I’m lead to believe you have his private e-mail address. Is this not the case? If it isn’t, I could let you have it for a small fee.
Jeremy
Re Hatem, my understanding is that he has changed, or is about to change, employers. I’m lead to believe you have his private e-mail address. Is this not the case? If it isn’t, I could let you have it for a small fee.
Jeremy
Should a progressive banker acquire non-banking knowledge to
Jeremy,
Thanks for the recent news about our mutual friend Hatem. We have his hotmail private email address. If you have something different, we would like to buy it for a small fee as you have suggested. As a consultant, we do not wish to get free services, even from our friends, although each week we receive a lot of enquiries for free consultations from bankers and traders that we have to decline gracefully.
Considering that it is not worth the troubles to arrange a bank draft just for such a small sum, how about we deduct it from our fees for a 3-day “Transport Documents for Bankers” interactive workshop to your bank. We may give you a 50% discount. However, this privilege is not transferable or assignable. It also carries 100% money back guarantee if your bank is not fully satisfied with the results.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/16/02 4:28:46 PM]
Thanks for the recent news about our mutual friend Hatem. We have his hotmail private email address. If you have something different, we would like to buy it for a small fee as you have suggested. As a consultant, we do not wish to get free services, even from our friends, although each week we receive a lot of enquiries for free consultations from bankers and traders that we have to decline gracefully.
Considering that it is not worth the troubles to arrange a bank draft just for such a small sum, how about we deduct it from our fees for a 3-day “Transport Documents for Bankers” interactive workshop to your bank. We may give you a 50% discount. However, this privilege is not transferable or assignable. It also carries 100% money back guarantee if your bank is not fully satisfied with the results.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/16/02 4:28:46 PM]
Should a progressive banker acquire non-banking knowledge to
T.O.,
I too only have his private hotmail address. Therefore, it seems I'll not be able to collect my fee.
Jeremy
I too only have his private hotmail address. Therefore, it seems I'll not be able to collect my fee.
Jeremy
Should a progressive banker acquire non-banking knowledge to
Jeremy,
We have received a response from Hatem's private email account. Many thanks for your concerns.
Our heartiest congratulations to Hatem for his new venture, as a training manager in Arab Bank plc in Amman. He will join us soon.
Looking back at past postings, it appears that Laurence, Hatem, Abdulkader and us share the same opinions most of the time. So Jeremy and Andrle, who are of similar lines of thoughts, be careful. Tough "battles" ahead after Hatem joining us again.
Leo, Davie and Heinz seem to play the role of a referee and a mediator.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/17/02 4:35:14 PM]
We have received a response from Hatem's private email account. Many thanks for your concerns.
Our heartiest congratulations to Hatem for his new venture, as a training manager in Arab Bank plc in Amman. He will join us soon.
Looking back at past postings, it appears that Laurence, Hatem, Abdulkader and us share the same opinions most of the time. So Jeremy and Andrle, who are of similar lines of thoughts, be careful. Tough "battles" ahead after Hatem joining us again.
Leo, Davie and Heinz seem to play the role of a referee and a mediator.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/17/02 4:35:14 PM]