This is not a stupid query although on its face it appears to be one.
As a DC consultant and court witness, we have often encountered in DC fraud cases that the negotiating banks all claim that they negotiate the documents in good faith.
To give you one example, in one "Solo" class DC fraud case from Korea that we handled before we moved our office from Hong Kong to Toronto, the issuing banks in Korea all of a sudden received many SWIFT messages in one morning from all the negotiating banks from overseas, telling the issuing banks that they all negotiated "yesterday" in good faith on the same morning that the public listed conglomerate declared bankruptcy (as an applicant in many transferable and back-to-back DC arrangements). Could this be a mere coincidence?
Jeremy, is it true from your knowledge and experience that "in bad faith" is an intention that is very difficult to prove in a court of law? And the onus of proof falls on the part of the issuing bank?
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/31/02 6:04:31 PM]
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
T.O.,
I'm sorry but this is not something of which I have any experience. However, I can well see the difficulties that there may be in proving bad faith.
Jeremy
I'm sorry but this is not something of which I have any experience. However, I can well see the difficulties that there may be in proving bad faith.
Jeremy
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PGauntlett
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:25 pm
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
In these litigious times, and taking into account the consequences of full disclosure, it would be reckless for any bank to make an untrue statement as to what action it has or has not taken
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
Jeremy & Philip,
It would be a blessing (as a consultant) to be able to expose ourselves to so many DC fraud cases every year, in which certain banks from certain countries did appear to make false statements on negotiation. However we cannot share with you the names of those banks and those countries for sensitivity reasons.
Looking at the recent Enron, WorldCom cases, who knows whether the statement from a Fortune 500 corporation (banks included) is true or false?
www.tolee.com
It would be a blessing (as a consultant) to be able to expose ourselves to so many DC fraud cases every year, in which certain banks from certain countries did appear to make false statements on negotiation. However we cannot share with you the names of those banks and those countries for sensitivity reasons.
Looking at the recent Enron, WorldCom cases, who knows whether the statement from a Fortune 500 corporation (banks included) is true or false?
www.tolee.com
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
Jeremy,
You need not have to have personal involvement in a negotiation "in bad faith" case to be able to comment on the legal aspects of "in bad faith", regarding onus of proof from the issuing bank and its difficulties.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/30/02 4:27:30 PM]
You need not have to have personal involvement in a negotiation "in bad faith" case to be able to comment on the legal aspects of "in bad faith", regarding onus of proof from the issuing bank and its difficulties.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/30/02 4:27:30 PM]
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
I take it that you have all read the article in the International Bulletin section in the latest DC Insight from an Indian correspondent - frightening!!
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
We admire the courage of our friend Ravi Mehta to be so straight forward in exposing the stunning facts and malpractices on examination of documents of his “mother country” (assuming that he is a US citizen already), as commented by Alistairo. The means banks like that would also be inclined to negotiate “in bad faith”.
So, Jeremy, if you have not seen one, and we of course trust that you tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you are either very lucky indeed or this is a natural consequence of your not pracitsing MBWA. We believe it is the latter. Correct us if we are wrong.
We would like to request Roy Becker, the author of “A Banker’s Insights on International Trade” (telling funny stories about DC operations recommended by our friend N. D. George who shared with us his secrets for scoring a distinction in CDCS when he visited us in Toronto) to write a new book named “The Dark Side (Star War interpretation) of ISBP” or “International Standard Banking Malpractices (ISBM)”. ISBM is a derivative of ICBM (Inter Continental Ballistic Missile), with equal destruction capabilities.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/31/02 6:00:52 PM]
So, Jeremy, if you have not seen one, and we of course trust that you tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you are either very lucky indeed or this is a natural consequence of your not pracitsing MBWA. We believe it is the latter. Correct us if we are wrong.
We would like to request Roy Becker, the author of “A Banker’s Insights on International Trade” (telling funny stories about DC operations recommended by our friend N. D. George who shared with us his secrets for scoring a distinction in CDCS when he visited us in Toronto) to write a new book named “The Dark Side (Star War interpretation) of ISBP” or “International Standard Banking Malpractices (ISBM)”. ISBM is a derivative of ICBM (Inter Continental Ballistic Missile), with equal destruction capabilities.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/31/02 6:00:52 PM]
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DimitriScoufaridis
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:17 pm
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
T.O. Lee
We have seen cases of fraud attempts by beneficiaries, walk-in customers or others (e.g. third parties approaching our customers, or unknown fraudsters approaching banks directly). We have also seen cases of bad faith by applicants or beneficiaries. However, we have not yet seen a combination of bath faith by the negotiating banks in DC fraud (Note: I guess there was a typo in your reference to “negotiation banks” instead of “negotiating banks”).
Dimitri
We have seen cases of fraud attempts by beneficiaries, walk-in customers or others (e.g. third parties approaching our customers, or unknown fraudsters approaching banks directly). We have also seen cases of bad faith by applicants or beneficiaries. However, we have not yet seen a combination of bath faith by the negotiating banks in DC fraud (Note: I guess there was a typo in your reference to “negotiation banks” instead of “negotiating banks”).
Dimitri
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
Dimitri,
Many thanks for pointing out the typo "negotiation bank”. In the query itself we are more careful in spelling checking and hence you see this term used correctly. However, the MS Word spell check is not UCP compliant or AI yet, and that is why this typo has been missed out.
By the way, in our workshops, we often highlight that all banks in the UCP 500 end up with “ing” and not “ion”. Perhaps that is why we have a bank named ING Bank.
And why Barring(s) was bought by ING Bank? Because Barring's destiny is already written in its name - Barring ends up with ING. We create jokes like this to help the participants to remember better, a skill also used by Roy Becker.
Did I tell you this joke in my workshop in your country?
By the way, is my destiny also written in my name? Laurence, a lateral thinking consultant, should be able to provide the answer.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/31/02 6:26:47 PM]
Many thanks for pointing out the typo "negotiation bank”. In the query itself we are more careful in spelling checking and hence you see this term used correctly. However, the MS Word spell check is not UCP compliant or AI yet, and that is why this typo has been missed out.
By the way, in our workshops, we often highlight that all banks in the UCP 500 end up with “ing” and not “ion”. Perhaps that is why we have a bank named ING Bank.
And why Barring(s) was bought by ING Bank? Because Barring's destiny is already written in its name - Barring ends up with ING. We create jokes like this to help the participants to remember better, a skill also used by Roy Becker.
Did I tell you this joke in my workshop in your country?
By the way, is my destiny also written in my name? Laurence, a lateral thinking consultant, should be able to provide the answer.
www.tolee.com
[edited 7/31/02 6:26:47 PM]
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larryBacon
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm
From your own experience, are ALL negotiating banks negotiat
T.O.
there are several possibilities to your linking your name to your destiny -
Lee is the maritime reference to a sheltered side, out of the wind. However, it does not appear to be in your nature to hide away.
T.O. for Toronto Ontario, close to your present position.
Lee also suggests you coming to live in Cork, Ireland which was built around the river Lee.
This exercise, however, is suggestive of gypsy fortune-telling, where one interprets a multitude of possibilities by gauging the reaction of the intended recipient and focusing on the option which elicits the most dramatic response. This is not a skill I possess.
Laurence
there are several possibilities to your linking your name to your destiny -
Lee is the maritime reference to a sheltered side, out of the wind. However, it does not appear to be in your nature to hide away.
T.O. for Toronto Ontario, close to your present position.
Lee also suggests you coming to live in Cork, Ireland which was built around the river Lee.
This exercise, however, is suggestive of gypsy fortune-telling, where one interprets a multitude of possibilities by gauging the reaction of the intended recipient and focusing on the option which elicits the most dramatic response. This is not a skill I possess.
Laurence