Hi
A LC has been received by Swift which mentions that the specimen signatures of the Applicant will follow by mail which forms an integral part of the LC.
An Opinion requested for
1) Do we verify the signatures of the mail received from the IB?
2) Do we advise the beneficiary of the specimen signatures of the applicant?
Regards
Jason
Specimen Signatures Of Applicants
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AsifMahmoodButt
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:21 pm
Specimen Signatures Of Applicants
Hi Jason.
1) You should verify the authenticity of the signature of the bank officer that signs the cover letter for the specimen issuing bank sent.
2) You must advise the bnf because the specimen you received forms an integral part of the l/c.Otherwise issuing bank would have drawn your attn that the specimen is for your bank use only.
Draw bnf's attn to pay attn to the signature of the applicant which must correspond with the specimen you received.
Regards,
Bogdan
1) You should verify the authenticity of the signature of the bank officer that signs the cover letter for the specimen issuing bank sent.
2) You must advise the bnf because the specimen you received forms an integral part of the l/c.Otherwise issuing bank would have drawn your attn that the specimen is for your bank use only.
Draw bnf's attn to pay attn to the signature of the applicant which must correspond with the specimen you received.
Regards,
Bogdan
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DimitriScoufaridis
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:17 pm
Specimen Signatures Of Applicants
Jason,
It is a market practice followed by many applicants/beneficiaries in the Middle East especially with domestic deliveries/local credits. The issues here are:
1. The issuing bank takes a responsibility for the accuracy of the document since it is going to signature-verify it, thus, becoming a party in the presentation process.
2. The applicant restricts payment of the credit contrary to its nature as a define and irrevocable undertaking provided a complying presentation is made by the beneficiary.
3. The issuing bank is not responsible for the applicant’s withholding of the document or signature.
As per para 4 of ISBP 681, a credit should not require presentation of documents that are to be issued or countersigned by the applicant. If a credit is issued including such terms, the beneficiary must either seek amendment or comply with them and bear the risk of failure to do so.
Some banks prefer to see such dox “purportedly” signed or that the list of signatures will only serve to check the name(s) of the signer(s) on the doc/dox without validity that the actual signature(s) visually match the specimen signature(s).
Regards
Dimitri
It is a market practice followed by many applicants/beneficiaries in the Middle East especially with domestic deliveries/local credits. The issues here are:
1. The issuing bank takes a responsibility for the accuracy of the document since it is going to signature-verify it, thus, becoming a party in the presentation process.
2. The applicant restricts payment of the credit contrary to its nature as a define and irrevocable undertaking provided a complying presentation is made by the beneficiary.
3. The issuing bank is not responsible for the applicant’s withholding of the document or signature.
As per para 4 of ISBP 681, a credit should not require presentation of documents that are to be issued or countersigned by the applicant. If a credit is issued including such terms, the beneficiary must either seek amendment or comply with them and bear the risk of failure to do so.
Some banks prefer to see such dox “purportedly” signed or that the list of signatures will only serve to check the name(s) of the signer(s) on the doc/dox without validity that the actual signature(s) visually match the specimen signature(s).
Regards
Dimitri
Specimen Signatures Of Applicants
It would be advisable for the advising bank :
1) to verify the signatures of the mail received from the IB and in case of non conformity to ask IB for a confirmation by an authenticated swift
2) not to advise the beneficiary of the specimen signatures but it should first agree with the IB that final decision as regards the verification of correctness of applicant signature on the required document/s when presented belongs only to the advising bank which must be given the full authority of judgement in this regard.
Regards
Antoine Samaha
1) to verify the signatures of the mail received from the IB and in case of non conformity to ask IB for a confirmation by an authenticated swift
2) not to advise the beneficiary of the specimen signatures but it should first agree with the IB that final decision as regards the verification of correctness of applicant signature on the required document/s when presented belongs only to the advising bank which must be given the full authority of judgement in this regard.
Regards
Antoine Samaha
Specimen Signatures Of Applicants
1. I cannot conceive that a bank would not authenticate any ‘part’ of a credit. IF passing on the mail message to the beneficiary surely 9(b) applies?
2. This depends on the instructions you have received from the IB, which need to be quite clear on this point.
My other comments are:
A. The Credit needs to make express reference to the signatures and state that they must appear to accord with the specimens provided by the IB.
B. By checking the signatures one is not taking responsibility for the accuracy of the document. One is merely verifying the signatures on the document APPEAR (or not, as the case may be) to resemble the specimens and nothing more.
C. I cannot see that this requirement in any way undermines the ‘definite’ or ‘irrevocable’ nature of a Credit. However, I quite agree that this requirement means that the beneficiary requires the applicant’s co-operation to make a complying presentation, but to me that is a different matter entirely.
D. If a nominated bank is not prepared to ‘verify’ the signatures it cannot therefore perform a nominated bank role.
2. This depends on the instructions you have received from the IB, which need to be quite clear on this point.
My other comments are:
A. The Credit needs to make express reference to the signatures and state that they must appear to accord with the specimens provided by the IB.
B. By checking the signatures one is not taking responsibility for the accuracy of the document. One is merely verifying the signatures on the document APPEAR (or not, as the case may be) to resemble the specimens and nothing more.
C. I cannot see that this requirement in any way undermines the ‘definite’ or ‘irrevocable’ nature of a Credit. However, I quite agree that this requirement means that the beneficiary requires the applicant’s co-operation to make a complying presentation, but to me that is a different matter entirely.
D. If a nominated bank is not prepared to ‘verify’ the signatures it cannot therefore perform a nominated bank role.
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JudithAutié
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:20 pm
Specimen Signatures Of Applicants
Hi
I have seen banks (particularly American banks) who refuse specimen signatures stating that they are not experts in graphology. The banks in question refused to advise the credit.
We frequently received credits from the Middle East which required inspection certificates signed by specifically appointed inspectors (not necessarily the applicants themselves) with specimen signatures supplied by the issuing bank.
I always informed the IB that 1) I would give the specimen signatures to the beneficiary unless instructed otherwise within a certain lapse of time, and 2) I would examine the signatures to the best of our abilities but that we were not graphology experts and would bear no responsibility in case there was any dispute as to the compliance of the signatures.
With those remarks, I only had one case where there was a problem : the inspector signed in a different manner than the specimen. When confronted with the refusal of the signature, the inspector re-signed, saying he has mistakenly signed his "personal" signature instead of his "professional" signature.
regards
Judith
I have seen banks (particularly American banks) who refuse specimen signatures stating that they are not experts in graphology. The banks in question refused to advise the credit.
We frequently received credits from the Middle East which required inspection certificates signed by specifically appointed inspectors (not necessarily the applicants themselves) with specimen signatures supplied by the issuing bank.
I always informed the IB that 1) I would give the specimen signatures to the beneficiary unless instructed otherwise within a certain lapse of time, and 2) I would examine the signatures to the best of our abilities but that we were not graphology experts and would bear no responsibility in case there was any dispute as to the compliance of the signatures.
With those remarks, I only had one case where there was a problem : the inspector signed in a different manner than the specimen. When confronted with the refusal of the signature, the inspector re-signed, saying he has mistakenly signed his "personal" signature instead of his "professional" signature.
regards
Judith
Specimen Signatures Of Applicants
Judith,
I share your apparent aversion to Credits that require the ‘verification’ of signatures for the same reason -I infer- as you. However, the difficulty I have with the ‘we were not graphology experts’ is that comparing customer signatures -e.g. on cheques, application forms (e.g. for a Credit!) etc- and corresondent bank signatures (e.g. on bank drafts) to specimens on mandates / in 'signature books' is a vital and routine part of banking. Therefore, even though I agree with your thinking, I find it difficult to argue credibly that ‘verifying’ signatures is some how out of the ordinary for a banker.
Regards, Jeremy
[edited 8/17/2007 9:15:15 AM]
I share your apparent aversion to Credits that require the ‘verification’ of signatures for the same reason -I infer- as you. However, the difficulty I have with the ‘we were not graphology experts’ is that comparing customer signatures -e.g. on cheques, application forms (e.g. for a Credit!) etc- and corresondent bank signatures (e.g. on bank drafts) to specimens on mandates / in 'signature books' is a vital and routine part of banking. Therefore, even though I agree with your thinking, I find it difficult to argue credibly that ‘verifying’ signatures is some how out of the ordinary for a banker.
Regards, Jeremy
[edited 8/17/2007 9:15:15 AM]
Specimen Signatures Of Applicants
Judith,
We often receive l/cs from western europe 1st rank banks including specimens of signatures that must appear on various documents which must be signed both by bnf and applicant.
We always accepted such specimens either as integral part of l/c or for our use only (depending on issuing bank's instructions).
When forms integral part, we draw bnf's attn to verify if the applicant's signature appear to be the one received from iss.bank.
I think that such signatures must be checked as per art.14d of ucp600. So,you not need to be an expert in graphology but just to observe if the signature appears or not to be the one required.
Regard,
Bogdan
We often receive l/cs from western europe 1st rank banks including specimens of signatures that must appear on various documents which must be signed both by bnf and applicant.
We always accepted such specimens either as integral part of l/c or for our use only (depending on issuing bank's instructions).
When forms integral part, we draw bnf's attn to verify if the applicant's signature appear to be the one received from iss.bank.
I think that such signatures must be checked as per art.14d of ucp600. So,you not need to be an expert in graphology but just to observe if the signature appears or not to be the one required.
Regard,
Bogdan
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JudithAutié
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:20 pm
Specimen Signatures Of Applicants
Of course we checked the signatures "to the best of our ability", but once again, I wish to stress to IB (and applicants) that I would refuse any responsibility if the signature was a forgery.
Bogdan, the reason I cited the Middle East credits is that my bank's focus is primarily, but not exclusively, the Middle East. This is not to say that specimen signatures aren't used in other regions. I must admit tho I've never seen one from an Asian country. Has anyone else?
And Hey Guys guess what : I got confirmation from one of the biggest banks here in France that they no longer checked signatures on any check unless the account had a flag on it for some reason (lost/stolen checks etc). It used to be that checks over a certain amount (fixed by each bank) would be checked, but now this isn't even true any more !
That really surprised me.
Best
Judith
Bogdan, the reason I cited the Middle East credits is that my bank's focus is primarily, but not exclusively, the Middle East. This is not to say that specimen signatures aren't used in other regions. I must admit tho I've never seen one from an Asian country. Has anyone else?
And Hey Guys guess what : I got confirmation from one of the biggest banks here in France that they no longer checked signatures on any check unless the account had a flag on it for some reason (lost/stolen checks etc). It used to be that checks over a certain amount (fixed by each bank) would be checked, but now this isn't even true any more !
That really surprised me.
Best
Judith